Knightmare Live's Paul Flannery on RPG Shows

For those of you raised on Pokémon and lack of taste, Knightmare might mean absolutely nothing, but to those of us who sat cross legged on beanbags, at 4.30pm, weekdays in 1987 – it meant everything. A live action role-playing gameshow where eager dungeoneers were sent blindly into a maze of cutting edge green screens, armed only with a helmet and a knapsack of enthusiasm. The Virgil-like guide on this journey was Treguard, the host and soul of the show and whose mantel Paul Flannery took on when, like a delightfully unexpected finger in the butthole of nostalgia, he turned Knightmare into a Fringe experience. 

Treguard: Past, Present and Future

FRED FLETCH: Should we do this interview with you as Treguard?

Paul Flannery: "Um. I don't know..."

It would be cool, but I think it's going to get annoying fast if I have to keep explaining modern technology to you like you're a 14th century Dungeon Master.

"Yeah, let's just do it as ourselves."

So, right off the bat, the original Treguard was Hugo Myatt, and in Knightmare Live you pay convincing homage to his performance. What exactly made Hugo so good in the TV show, and what do you take from his character?

"His eyes. His huge bulging eyes... but also, his aloofness. He's like this neutral character, sort of like a caretaker, he's there – especially in my show – to keep things going in a way that doesn't seem like he's driving things, because the player drives it. Treguard is this mystical force who... (laughs) has huge bulging eyes."

I was stoked researching the original guy, he didn't just do Knightmare for eight seasons then fuck off into unemployment. That great voice, those boggle eyes went on to do voiceovers on cartoons and even – I shit you not – played a part in a Crimewatch reconstruction.

"No way!"

Can you imagine Treguard on Crimewatch UK?

(In Treguard voice) "Welcome officers... There seems to have been a murrrder...

"A plumber's been decapitated... But you must only take one piece of evidence. Ooonly one... So much horror..."

Knightmare ran for seven years. It surprised me they didn't end up trying to launch a version of it in America.

"I think they did. I saw a pilot... it wasn't very good. They made a French version."

You know, if they did go ahead and made a remake of it in America, who do you think would make a good Treguard?

"I don't know... who would you suggest?"

There's only one man who could capture the aloof, mystical, child-friendly Dungeon caretakering vibe Treguard deserves...

"Who?"

Gary Busey.

"I'm sold on that. In fact right now I can think of no one else who would even come close. Busey all the way."

Knightmare Live, photo: Sophie-Louise Bachnick

Trusting Treguard

You can be honest with me, is it actually possible to win the game? Or is your dungeon just a goblin-filled middle-finger to fairness?

"When we started this show in the beginning we thought, 'OK, let's make the first few rooms easy, then amp up the difficulty.' Ease them in, then... you die. But you get into the game, you play it smart, maybe get a few more levels in, then...you die... But if it's just a show with people dying in a stupid hat, that's no fun. Sure, the show can't run for hours, we can't just have someone go on indefinitely, so there's a story: a quest... Winning is all a matter of perspective. But this year we've changed things a bit.

"The fun is in seeing how different people play, how they think they're going to win. For me, it's just going to be a game of seeing exactly how many people survive this time."

There's kind of a lot of trust issues going on here. As Treguard, it’s your dungeon. we need to know the odds aren't stacked against us.

"Oh, you can trust Treguard."

But can we? You know, the original series, like the very first season, they had multiple rooms. Like a million options for every contingency because kids are crafty, unpredictable bastards. Especially when you're trying to murder them with a Cyclops...

"They had millions of these rooms all mapped out so the kid's choices actually mattered. You turn left, you enter one room, you turn right, it's another... but theoretically, fans of the show could memorise that. Actually plot out the dungeon... that's a lot of work the makers just put in, only to have some Joe 90 learn the safest way through the maze. So from that point of view, I guess they thought to hell with it."

Even if it's the illusion of choice? Like, ‘Do you want a kick in the dick or a kick in the balls?’ Either way, you're ending up on the ground with junk that smells of Lord Fearmaster's foot.

"Not exactly. A room's a room. It's the choice you make in the room that matters.”

(Continues below)

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More from the Edinburgh Fringe 2016:

 Pierre Novellie on Fringe politics

 Nina Conti interview: In Two Minds

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Funhouse: memories of Pat Sharp

What other shows influenced you?

"Krypton Factor.”

Fuck, yes.

"Knightrider... that's a show I'd race home to watch. You gotta remember back then there was only four channels... that's not exactly the choice of shows we have now. That's probably why Knightmare was so unique. I mean, it's not like having 600 channels where you can afford to take a chance on something so strange and unpredictably brilliant as a virtual reality dungeon show like Knightmare... I guess it's why children's TV played it safe with more cartoons, and less green-screen riddle telling rock monsters."

There weren't exactly any real contemporaries to Knightmare that would translate well to a live Fringe show. Closest I can think of is Funhouse... but quite frankly, fuck Pat Sharp.

"Yeah, Funhouse, what an imaginative high concept game show. 'Right kids. Get in this ball pit. OK? Right, good. Here's a prize... now do it again 600 times...' It's not exactly the Crystal Maze."

Richard O'Brien would love a good ball pit, but point taken.

"The Crystal Maze was like a living installation. You travel around it. The risks are real, the victory, or defeat is sweeter. It's not just a go-cart, twins and a ball-pit but then that's the 1990s, that's when it changes. You get Power Rangers, Tamagotchi... cool stuff...but try buying the rights to any of them to make a Fringe show."

It sucks that the whole vibe of Knightmare hasn't carried through into modern TV shows. You're pretty much the only person determined to keep that beautiful, batshit crazy magic alive.

"True. True, but it was a different era."

Closest we've got now is that fuck awful shit: Raven.

"Oh yes. I know of Raven, not exactly a fan but I do use it as a point of reference for people too young to remember Knightmare. Like when you describe Knightmare to someone who's never seen the show, and they go, 'Oh, a bit like Raven,' and I'm like....[he sighs] 'Yeah, a bit like Raven.'"

Richard O'Brien's Crystal Maze

The M.M.O.R.P.G. Show – Casting the 20-sided dice

You've got this sweetass M.M.O.R.P.G. show coming to the Fringe this year. If you think I'm excited about Knightmare, you should see the neighbour-worrying boner I have right now for a live tabletop role-playing game.

“It's like a simplified live version of tabletop Dungeons and Dragons.. I pick a few people from the audience, they take on the characters of a narrative of my devising. All they get is a huge 20-sided dice, for all their actions or decisions. Do you play any D&D?”

Fuck yeah. I was thrown out of Warhammer for Warhammering too hard. It's a guilty pleasure. 

“Then I'm preaching to the converted. But that's the problem that needed addressed. It's such a great game, but it had to be accessible to everyone. Something you could enjoy, even if you'd never played before. Even if you came in cold, you could leap in and have the greatest and most exciting adventure of your life, without having to spend three hours on admin working out exactly how many points you need to lift a broadsword or shoot a lightning bolt."

That's spot on for what puts people off... like if it takes five idiots an hour to design the perfect character, then another 38 minutes of arguing over exactly the carrying bonus of a dwarf on heat...

"We shaved all that down. You're a character. I give you a vague mission and off you go. Do whatever you want, all you need to do is choose to do something. Roll that dice. Get a high score, you do that thing awesomely... score a one... Not so much. But either way, you have so much fun. We've already played it in London – we won an award for best show of the festival. That's telling you exactly how good this show is. You gotta come play it. I know there's a few things like this going around, but how can I say this? This one is the most fun. Not just for the players, who are running about just doing anything, but for me. The one who controls it all. In Knightmare, I'm the neutral gatekeeper. In M.M.O.R.P.G. it's my world... the fun we'll all have.”

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The M.M.O.R.P.G. Show, Gilded Balloon at the Counting House (Ballroom), 3-28 Aug (not 15), 9.30pm, £6-8/PWYW
Knightmare Live: The Game Has Changed, Pleasance Dome (King Dome), 3-28 Aug (not 15), 7pm, £7.50-12